New Zealand Local Weather Forum
Weather Discussion => Hardware Software and Technology => Media => Topic started by: Te Puke Weather on April 20, 2012, 01:57:38 PM
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MetService forces WeatherWatch.co.nz to stop Daily Highs service
Posted by hitadmin on Fri, 20/04/2012 - 11:37
Filed in:National News
The government forecaster, MetService, has again flexed its muscle towards WeatherWatch.co.nz by raising the price of our daily highs feed from zero to almost $30,000 - forcing WeatherWatch.co.nz to scrap the service altogether.
Head weather analyst Philip Duncan says the pricing is astronomical for a product that isn't even used for forecasting. "This is the list of daily highs, taken from publicly owned weather stations across the country. We expected a small fee, but to suggest $29,400 plus GST per year as a price is simply designed to again block WeatherWatch.co.nz from providing a service to the public of New Zealand".
"We accept the government asks MetService to make a profit but when does that become anti competitive? MetService is one of the most profitable SOE's in the country, they don't need to charge wild prices for very small products"
Mr Duncan says the WeatherWatch.co.nz website receives only a fraction of the traffic MetService.com does, but are treated as serious competition. "We have never seen MetService as competition, we openly say we'd like to work with them, especially around severe weather events, but they aren't interested".
MetService has long had a reputation for being expensive. In the past few years WeatherWatch.co.nz has been quoted anywhere from $40,000 to $200,000 to have radar images on our website - the very same ones that are free at MetService.com.
Despite being a state owned enterprise MetService receives significant tax payer funding for various services.
Mr Duncan says he will be raising this with the Commerce Commission, as he did last year with the rain radar network.
After years of public pressure by WeatherWatch.co.nz MetService finally agreed to free up the radar service in November last year, from hourly updates to 7 minute updates
"In the past I think some in the public thought WeatherWatch had an issue with MetService - now I think the public are very clearly seeing it is their bullying attitude towards us that is causing the problems".
The price change came when WeatherWatch.co.nz asked MetService for a new FTP site to retrieve the data. "We said we expected a reasonable fee to do this and were willing to pay one - but $30,000 a year for something that is used as just an interest piece at the end of each day is simply ludicrous".
Despite this data being free in most other countries MetService says the pricing was based on other prices in the market.
"We have a serious problem when the government forecaster jumps at the chance to charge huge amounts of money for these products but refuses to even reply to our requests of working proactively together in the interests of public safety, which we have done repeatedly over the past 6 months".
WeatherWatch.co.nz is looking into other options for the service.
www.weatherwatch.co.nz
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there is the RAW ASOS type data available on their web site, every 3 hours, parsed out and used by metvue.com to show the current (every 3 hour) windspeed and temperature and last hour rain data from the M/S stations around NZ.
Met Vue could use that parsed out data to come up with the max/min temperature for all the stations
I wrote a program that did just that (and max windspeed, and showed current temp/windspeed)....I dont have it working now, as the service metvue started up superceeded it....
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I presume you are speaking of the Maps they have running under Current Weather.
http://www.metvuw.com/nzweather/ (http://www.metvuw.com/nzweather/)
With permission from weather watch we were also posting the Highs for the day in our daily weather thread. I guess we better not start leeching them off the Metservice without permission.
I dont have a spare $30,000.
Of course if 1 of us had more time we could actually do our own Highs and Lows :)
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Hold that thought Jenny.
I am starting to think through the development of a database application to read in all the daily data files from any or all of the Stations represented in this forum. Once established this would allow for the production of formatted data and reporting.
I have not yet decided whether I would write this in Microsoft Access which would mean it is a desktop database or if I might use Visual Studio LightSwitch which would mean I could also put the database online and allow others to use the data, username & password required so not just anyone would be allowed access to it.
If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions along these lines then I would appreciate any feedback you might have. Lets show MetService that they are not the only ones that can collect and publish data?
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Yep I am also thinking along those lines.
I am collecting manually 42 stations data a day now. I could easily turn that into 50. That is a good coverage of New Zealand. The only trouble is the data provided is not universal. In fact their is 5 different layouts I am sourcing from. Hence your idea is not going to be easy.
There are 2 txt files that are the main ones so even if we could sort something for them, that would be a start.
Keep thinking Ohauiti :)
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Also along these lines, maybe weather watch would like to start a Backyard section the same as Weatherbug did. To get the daily high temp alone would probably only take half an hour with a good bookmark list. We could sell ours for say $10,000 :)
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check out
http://www.nordicweather.net/nwn.php
for what can be done re toplists link
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I've got a couple of ideas - talk to Ken True, he has the experience of sucking the info from all the different types of stations.
- and talk to Mr Duncan at WeatherWatch to let him know we could solve his problem at a much lower cost
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Hi weather display. Yes I did find it.
But also decided we were talking a lot of work here :)
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True on both accounts but we will need control and ownership of whatever we do. We are slowly building a very neat tight network.
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They are still posting daily highs? http://www.weatherwatch.co.nz/daily_highs
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Just to make note here also.
The metservice upgraded a couple of weeks ago and added around 8 new Stations.
I see WW has gone back to that original list to report today removing that 8.
I am wondering why. Maybe they still think they have 'permission' or better still maybe Phil won lotto :)
Let the battle of the highs begin :)
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It could of course just be that their current contract is still valid :)
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Correct but why hide the page then?
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If you (in this case Metservice) had information that you had to pay for to maintain wouldnt you expect some payment for its use, especially when its your so called competition? Or am I being mean spirited like Metservice?? Also its all well in good suggesting using this network of wx stations for a daily highs list BUT accuracy of alot of these stations is questionable? I have had various PWS and the minimum for accuracy & reliability in my opinion is DAVIS stations.
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Correct on both scores.
Most of us would agree yes pay for metservice data but $30,000 for a few highs each day is just a tad over the top.
Not only is the station data questionable, but the station owners keep going on holiday on me :)
Seriously though I can not see anything along this vain for some time. None of us have the time at present. It would also have to come under backyards stations and this is a whole different ball game.
So those two can argue there highs and we will continue with our yesterdays :)
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I agree with you as well deepsouth. One thing I have never liked about ww is the fact that they are media backed giving them an opportunity to push their side of the story often via poor unbalanced media reporting.
I'm always suspicious when ww attempt to Garner support in this way.
If you re read the article you'll see it reports purely a ww viewpoint. There is no comment from ms to balance the reporting. And neither would you expect it. Commercial discussions between organisations are not normally discussed in the media. But for some reason ww have decided to go public on this.
I see their point on this 30k is alot for something the ms publishes on their website (but not for free. Its provided under contract to the government paid out of our taxes) but I don't think that's a fair comparison. Ww appear to ask the metservice for this data in a non standard format accessed in a non standard way. Both parties agree that there should be a cost. Ww provide their requirements. Ms cost them and provide a price and ww then start publicly attacking the ms in an attempt to put pressure on the ms to reduce the cost. That isnt a great way to perform contract negotiations.
What should happen is that ww change their requirements to reduce the cost. As an extreme example if ww really wanted to save money they could just pull them manually off the ms website for free- but obviously they don't want that and they would have to state the data is provided by the nz govt and or the metservice. Somewhere in the middle is the point that everyone is happy with and that's what both parties negotiate to.
At a guess I would suggest 30 k is about on the mark for this work assuming that the FTP server needs to be purchased and setup , potentially a backup server is required as well, and the data format needs to be agreed, built, access through firewalls established and the whole lot gets tested and supported ongoing by the ms . I don't see alot of change out of 30k for that.
So it seems to me that the original article doesn't compare apples with apples. Yes the data is available on the ms website but if you start to think about what they are actually asking for, what's involved and what the article is not telling you, then I think you'll find that as much as we would like to think it is, the whole truth may not be being presented here
My 2c anyway or maybe I'm just looking at this way too deeply!
Sent from my idroid using tapatalk2
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I believe the data is available in a serial file format for other organisations already and WW want in on it as well. It's nothing new, its just others are paying for it already but perhaps not that much... haha!
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good write up that gabba :)
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Gabba: As an extreme example if ww really wanted to save money they could just pull them manually off the ms website for free- but obviously they don't want that and they would have to state the data is provided by the nz govt and or the metservice.
I would not even attempt to copy the highs from MS. We would probably get our knuckles wrapped. Hence why we dont. Copyright. Apparently we are not allowed to copy anything from their site and republish. WW would be much the same I guess.
They have not given this forum permission to do as such and despite my effects I doubt they will. Anything we are republishing as with maps is infringing on their copyright.
Maybe the forum needs to be weary of this.
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For those interested in following this further, there is now a lively and often humorous response thread to the original article. It's worth a look and the idea of using personal weather stations is also mentioned
Some people are even jumping on the political bandwagon - didn't you know the reason why the met service are charging this much is because you voted for National! ROTFL :D
http://www.weatherwatch.co.nz/content/metservice-forces-weatherwatchconz-stop-daily-highs-service
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Gabba: As an extreme example if ww really wanted to save money they could just pull them manually off the ms website for free- but obviously they don't want that and they would have to state the data is provided by the nz govt and or the metservice.
I would not even attempt to copy the highs from MS. We would probably get our knuckles wrapped. Hence why we dont. Copyright. Apparently we are not allowed to copy anything from their site and republish. WW would be much the same I guess.
They have not given this forum permission to do as such and despite my effects I doubt they will. Anything we are republishing as with maps is infringing on their copyright.
Maybe the forum needs to be weary of this.
[/quote]So Jenny where do we get our high & lows from they say MS on the posts.
And where does MS get there data do they own the weather stations?.
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We lift them from WW where we do have permission to copy from with link back on any of their articles. Hence the old shorter list was posted last night leaving out the extra 8 that the MS have recently added.
They may still have a contract for these as I think it was Alan who said something along those lines.
I have not gone back to WW regarding this as yet. Just watching and waiting. I think we are the least of WW's worries right now :)
The metservice stations; Hopefully others will have the answers here. I have always been of the understanding that the MS own most of these stations or have a financial interest in them. Most of them are at Airports. To my knowledge the one in Gisborne is owned by the Gisborne Airport and the Metservice pay an x amount of dollars for their data.
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Thanks Jenny.
Looks like NIWA use the data from these stations too as there highs are the same in there Data.
Just been looking at the Ww Terms of Use and it looks like anyone can use this info as long as its not use for commercial purposes.
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They do not have a station in the South Waikato least in Tokoroa so they "guess" for Tokoroa and still get it wrong despite at least three pws weather stations on the internet from Tokoroa that they could "borrow' the data from...
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I don't think MS would have any problems with us manually getting the data from them, - after all they are manually checking our stations and using our info, especially those sites with webcams.
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I dont think we would win this one in a law suit somehow:
2.1 Limited Use Information is provided for Your own personal use in accordance with this Agreement. You must not:
use all or any part of the Limited Use Information for any commercial purpose; or
re-supply, alter, publicly display, perform or distribute (whether for consideration or otherwise) all or any part of the Limited Use Information,
without the prior written consent of MetService.
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Metservice allow some information to be reposted with acknowlegement. They define information as two types:
Limited Use and General Use.
General Use data is clearly defined in the T's and C's and must only be used for non-commercial use with acknowledgement. Limited Use data is anything else that they provide and cannot be used without permission.
In all cases read the T's and C's which are available here and make sure you understand them before using the data in any way, either for yourself or the forum:
http://www.metservice.com/about/legal-disclaimer
As a note I've written this post about 3 times and not posted it, because I didn't want to encourage / risk people posting the wrong data and potentially have the forum fall foul of the MS T's and C's. So I do have to (politely) mention at this point that anything posted on the forum against the MS T's and C's will be removed by the moderators.
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The forum now has written permission to use the Metservice site for information re forecasting, warnings, news, conditions etc.
We may publish but we may not make a profit from our publications.
So this is good news and keep us all above board :)
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DeepSouthWeather - a lot of temperature issues come down to the fact of poor installation, poor location, poor insulation and poor ventilation. A Davis does not excuse three of those issues unless it has a 24hr FARS attached of which only a few models do. They do have a reasonable Stevenson shield type of solar barrier and draft ventilation.
Most temperature sensors are accurate to within 0.1ºC whether is a Davis device or some other breed.
So, even a cheap la Crosse such as mine, can give a better range and response than a Davis with some home engineering and a good location. The Vantage Vue Davis units, for example, are a compromise and leave some temperature issues to be desired.
Out of the box though and with some installation guidleines and rules, I agree, you can't go much past a Davis 6152 etc series (preferring the 6153 FARS model) if it has been well sited.
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I also agree with Alan, that we can ask Ken True to develope a small script to pull the temp data out and into a separate file with time/date tag, station name and temperature . Do you want me to ask him - but we would also need to know what style of database file we would need - a csv perhaps? How should the file end? Should there be station counter field by the date/time tag?
Dave - you might be able to help as well. :) Not trying to shoot your offer to bits, but we do have the collection system working every five minutes and it should be easy to duplicate the temperatures into a new file.